OK so I have been accused of several things by the author of Waking Hereward; basically the accusations boil down to not responding to a particular comment here in a manner that was thought to be required. I give you from here:-
Anyway, I trolled down the comments, gradually losing the will to read and despising the hectoring control freakery with which Numptie revels – until I happened upon Gurdeep’s comment, posted on July 2nd of this year.. I have copied it below in its entirety. There is also Numptie’s feeble response – and Gurdeep’s reply. I reckon the comments policy has just had to be redefined as Numptie gets a comment from someone who doesn’t fit his stereotypical pigeon holes…..
There are several accusations here; “the hectoring control freakery with which Numptie revels”, “Numptie’s feeble response”, and last but not least putting people into “stereotypical pigeon holes”.
So let me deal with these points: a) the hectoring control freakery with which Numptie revels: if the deleting of insulting and abusive comments whislt at the same time preparing to engage in a “reasoned” debate is “control freakery” then yes I suppose that I am a control freak; however a control freak that believes in the freedom of speech and who will defend anyone’s right to voice their opinion. b) Numptie’s feeble response: well the response I made to a comment was:-
I will come back to your points Gurdeep when I return home from a short trip…
Well I am back from the short trip and have had several very busy months since; also I do not respond to anything that I have not checked out for myself, unlike those in the English Nationalist movement who tend to shoot off their mouths before checking the facts. I fully intend to respond to Gurdeep’s comment, and that is what this post is all about. c) stereotypical pigeon holes: well this just made me laugh coming from someone who supports the inherent divisiveness of English Nationalism!
So next a response:
First of all let me make it quite clear from the outset, as I have stated in a comment eslewhere:-
“I have little time for the more extreme faces of Nationalism of any kind; one only has to look back to the 1930’s to see where rampant nationalism led us, into a second world war! On the other hand I do not and never have denied that there is a case for an English Parliament, but I temper that with the caveat that it must be properly thought out and take all of the English regions into consideration; something that most of the English Nationalists who visit here find hard to understand.”
I wanted to make that point in order that I cannot be accused of taking sides with any particular brand of nationalism.
I also think that it is wrong to lump all Nationalists together as there are good and bad apples in every barrel; and I have no time for those hotheaded Cornish Nationalists who are giving all Cornish Nationalists a bad name in the same way that the hotheads within English Nationalism that I attack are giving English Nationalism a bad name. I happen to know a couple of people who take an English Nationalist stance who absolutely agree with me about the vitriolic, racist bigots who have attached themselves to the cause.
I agree that we do not “see English nationalists burning British, Scottish, Welsh or Cornish flags“; but what we do see from the hotheads is far, far worse in that their attitudes are divisive in that they are hell bent on setting minority against minority, of promoting a highlighting of “difference”. For instance there is a move afoot to have a seperate box on the census form for those who want to define themselves as English, Simon Maine over on Unlock Democracy puts it far better that I can when he says:-
The problem is that this census encourages people to separate themselves on the grounds of race as well as nationality. I accept that many families are English-based and stretch back for generations. There are perfect grounds to claim English national identity, but it says sweet FA about their ethnicity, nor should it. After so many years of cultural and racial ‘cross-pollination’, I would be surprised if someone could truly tell apart an Englishman from a Scotsman, an Irishman or a Welshman. Is there really any distinguishing marker that the English maintain to themselves in this modern age?
It is a corollary of bringing democracy closer to the people that it will necessarily stir up feelings of national pride and identity. This can be a healthy reaction. However, what we do not want is for it to stir up feelings of racial and ethnic differences within these Isles. The English may have an identity but it is specious to deduce from that they have an ethnicity as well. We must quickly separate the devolution debate from its potential for racialism if we are to move forward without controversy.
Gurdeep says that
The English accept that multiple identities are possible because the vast majority of them, even the most passionate Englishmen, tend to also feel British or have some strong regional identity, or perhaps some other ethnic identity like Indian. This is something that the Celtic nationalists don’t really understand, much less appreciate. England is much more tolerant and multicultural in this respect.
Here I do disagree; I suspect that most English people couldn’t give a damn about who comes from where, or about the ethnicity of those around them, they are too busy living their own lives; it is just the minority who want to highlight such differences. I would also say that the Celtic Nationalists perfectly understand all about multiculturalism; you only have to come to Edinburgh and Glasgow, both of which have diverse multicultural communities. Not only that but all of the ethnic communities rub along quite well together on the whole. Now I am not saying that there is an absence of racism or bigotry buried within these various communities, that would be inherently stupid of me, because there is, although not to the extent that one sees from the more unacceptabale face of English Nationalism.
Finally, I have to agree with Gurdeep when he states that he does not “understand the animosity that this debate generates“; neither do I. I was raised to respect my fellow human being regardless of sex, colour, creed etc. etc., and that is precisely what I try to do; however, those who are hell bent on the divisiveness of racism and bigotry do severely stretch my capacity to respect them.
Hopefully I have addressed, to some extent, the points raised by Gurdeep; although I know that it will not be to the satisfaction of the English Nationalists, because as we all know “they are right and I am wrong”, which is always their starting poing in any argument.
September 5, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Thank you for your reply.
I don’t think you understand the discussion that Simon Maine has generated. Neither, I might add, does Simon Maine. The English are as entitled to state their ethnicity as English as I am to state my ethnicity as Indian, or you Cornish. This does not make you, I, or them, un-British.
This is what multiple identity is all about. The English can be English and British much more readily than the Scots can be taken as Scottish and British, or even the Welsh. There is a fear of allowing the English to be English because of what is perceived as a racist streak running through English society, but regardless of their motives that does not entitle anyone to deny them the same rights that have been extended to the other nations and ethnicities of the UK.
If history teaches us anything it teaches us that people are all too ready to blame other ethnicities, races, religions for injustices within society. Instead of blaming the English and accusing English nationalists of being motivated by hate or racism, the injustices (which are real and inexcusable) should be removed.
I do not recognise the tolerant Scotland that you talk about. We are different people who obviously get a different impression of society based on our individual experiences. In my experience England is much more tolerant, perhaps because it is so much more racially mixed than even Scotland’s most multicultural parts. My advice for Indians in Edinburgh and Glasgow is keep to the city centres. Actually, that’s my advice for any tourist.
September 5, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Gurdeep, it is refreshing to find a commentor who reads what is written and makes their case in a logical and reasoned manner.
I am well aware of the discussion generated by Simon Maine, however I think that most English Nationalists are failing to see his distinction between identity and ethnicity. He is not denying the English the right to state their ethnicity, nor is he denying the English their right to state their identity; he is however saying that identity and ethnicity are not the same thing, and that they are very different. Perhaps I could put this better if I put it this way; my ethnicity is definitely Celtic, something that I have in common with other Celtic peoples (the Welsh, the Scottish, the Irish etc.etc.), however my identity is very definitely Cornish, and this is not held with the other Celtic peoples I mention. So whilst there is an English ethnicity, along side that runs a multiple English identity, as each region within England will see itself has having a seperate identity within that common English identity. I hope I have made some quite complex thoughts clear enough. And I totally agree none of this makes us “un-British”, although I have to confess that I see myself as European before British, but that is another argument altogether.
Multiple identity is a very strange beast indeed, and I agree with you that it is much easier for the English to be English/British than it is for the Celts to be Celtic/British. The last thing I would think of is denying the English the right to be English simply because there are a bunch of loonies in England with a streak of racism and bigotry running through them. However, what I am trying to point out is that by letting such loonies go unchecked is tantamount to giving the fox the key to the henhouse. I have a lot of English acquaintances, a lot of whom see the need for some form of English Assembly similar to that enjoyed by both Scotland and Wales, but not one of them uses any form of anti-Scottish\Welsh sentiments when discussing the issue. Returning to the fox and henhouse analogy, I agree with you we should not deny the fox his rights simply because he is behaving like a fox; however, I think that those who wish to restrict the rights of others who come to the UK as migrants etc. should also keep their mouth’s shut if their own rights are put under attack.
You are so right that history teaches us “that people are all too ready to blame other ethnicities, races, religions for injustices within society”; and you are right that such injustices should be removed. After all history has also taught us where such hatred of the other, racism, and bigotry can lead us; two world wars to date. I am sure that you will agree that this is a road that none of us want to go down again; but that is where such divisiveness could lead us if it is allowed to fester.
I can understand that we have very different views of the tolerant Scotland that I portray, but I can only state it from my own point of view, from my own observations of the mixed ethnicity and how it seems to work; this is why I think that England is a much less tolerant place than Scotland. But it would be a very boring world indeed if we all saw thing the same way. I am not saying that there are not problems within the various societies up here, that would be quite a stupid thing to say, but by and large they are not quite so prominent as they appear to be in England; although I suppose that that is not surprising give the differential in the population figures of England and Scotland. I also totally agree with you that there are parts of both Edinburgh and Glasgow that even I would not wander into unaccompanied on a dark night, or even in the daylight in some cases.
I think that at the end of the day we are pretty much in agreement about most things, it is just that we have slightly different perspectives of the same issues. Also if the people I have had to deal with here were prepared to read and understand what is written and make their case as logically as yourself they would probably find that I would also agree with, at least, some of what they say. Apologies for such a long reply, but your points could not be responded to in a trite, short manner.
September 5, 2007 at 2:59 pm
The way I read it he’s objecting to an English ethnicity tick box despite the fact that there are already other ethnic tick boxes because an English ethnicity diminishes Britishness. I don’t think being English is any more ill-defined than Scottish or Irish or Welsh. Or Indian for that matter, we have huge ethnic differences within India and many Indians are more akin to Pakistanis than to other Indians. Much as the lowland Scots are more similar to the English than they are to the Highlands and Islands Scots, or the way that the Cornish are more similar to the English than the Welsh (in some respects if not others).
If Britishness means anything it is a conglometration of all those ethnicities and identities into one state. But people must be allowed to be free with those ethnicities and identities for Britishness to work. Britishness should not really on the supression of the ethnicity or identity of all or any group.
There is no definitive test for ethnicity so it is, to an extent, subjective/personal. If they want to be English then let them. Culturally I feel more English than Indian, but of course I never will be ethnically English, though perhaps my grandchildren will be if England is permitted to achieve an inclusive political expression of nationhood and self. I don’t much like Pakistanis even though I am indistinguishable from a Pakistani to your average Brit (hardly the Brits fault since most Indian resturaunts are in fact Pakistani or Bengali). The Pakistani-Indian relationship is much like the Scottish-English thing, we are too similar for our own good and end up accentuating what small differences there are.
What I mean is that people will pick their own definitions. I pick Indian as my ethnicity, I pick Indian and English as my identity. You pick British and Cornish and European, or whatever you want, but allow others the freedom to do likewise. I don’t actually see anyone in that Simon Maine discussion who I would class as a person seeking to limit the rights of migrants to the UK, or who are seeking to deny them an English identity, quite a few of them appear to be arguing for civic nationalism and an English parliament. The issue of English ethnicity isn’t necessarily of any great consequence to that particular [English parliament] argument, though it’s understandable that the two should be discussed in the same breath given that they feel (and are) slighted against on both counts.
September 5, 2007 at 3:14 pm
That wasn’t very clear. What I should say is that nationhood has a bearing on ethnicity, and ethnicity a bearing on politics. Without a political sense of self Englishness is most readily expressed in ethnic terms and the English can be very easily forgiven for doing so, especially when everyone else is doing likewise (the Scots, Welsh and Cornish very vociferously).
September 5, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Just out of interest how do you know your ethnicity is celtic?
September 5, 2007 at 5:06 pm
Gurdeep: you will get no arguments from me on your comments as I agree with pretty much all that you say. Although, personally, I don’t see the point of having “ethnicity tick boxes” on the census form in the first place other than for the purposes of counting ethnic minorities; but no matter what your ethnicity, if you are born in the United Kingdom then what does it really matter what your ethnicity, as you are British anyway. I know that that is quite trite, and I am not trying to deny anyone their ethnicity; I just use that to show the pointlessness of having these tick boxes on the census form.
I really don’t have a problem with anyone voicing their ethnicity at all, and would positively encourage it. Where I do have a problem is when people begin to confuse ethnicity and identity, because they are very different, inextricably linked but very different at the same time.
“Just out of interest how do you know your ethnicity is celtic?”
The simple answer to that is that I know that I carry the MC1R gene, better known as the Celtic gene.